Men and Birth Trauma

A few days ago Dan had the opportunity to open up about what the birth was like for him, how he felt and how he feels about it now.

I think it's fairly common knowledge around here that men can suffer from PTSD after a birth.

But I'm wondering, is it possible for the man (or the non-birthing woman, or support person or whatever) but not the woman to have PTSD after birthing?

I'm looking forward to an interesting discussion here.

Perhaps parental onset depression, and shock, are more likely. Whilst I'm not saying ptsd is impossible, I think suggesting that a mans' experience of birth trauma can compare to that of the womyn herself is a bit insulting to the many womyn I have seen with suicidal thoughts because of their birth experience.

Men may feel guilt, or even have dreadful, powerless, memories of their baby's birth but they have not been raped, had episiotomies or unneccessary c/secs whilst they screamed NO. They were able to be with their babies after birth (even if they chose to be with their partners - no judgment on either choice), while their partners were shell shocked in the recovery rooms, drugged, sedated, and in pain.

I think that the powerlessness of birth in a hospital is a shock to men. They attend anti-natal classes where they're told they/we can refuse procedures if they/we want. They're used to being taken seriously, however for womyn, our bodies are legislated on regularly in parliament, our bodies (and reproductive choices) are regularly up for discussion. The bodies of our partners are theirs' alone - it is a shock for them to witness the abuse perpetrated against womyn in a "birth suite". And sadly many of them are unable to see that it is a bad thing. Often they think it's because OUR bodies are unable to birth (they like to argue with evolution - and the massive population of humans birthed without medical assistance?) and that birth is a violent procedure that needs monitoring, or saving, or constant management. Without obstetric advice saturating the media we would still view birth as safe and uninteresting - as it was prior to the 19th C. Birth was just birth, it was womyn's business.

While I don't wish to discredit the experiences of men who genuinely understand and are upset by the birth of their children within the hospital system, I DO prefer to offer sympathy to the womyn who endure it on a daily basis. Birthing remains an issue that is soley related to womyn's rights, but perhaps men need to stand up and be more vocal if change is to be felt within our hospital maternity system.

I applaud the men who make birth rights their cause!!! Well done to them, and thankyou - for I have experienced birthrape! My partner has read and approved this post

I think you make some very valid and original points, heket. Of course it's possible for someone witnessing violence against a loved one to develop PTSD, I imagine some men do. More men, from my observation, can go through seeing that stuff happen and deny it was even traumatic for their partner. That's what really riles me. Even if he doesn't perceive it as traumatic at the time, surely men can listen to what their partner says and take it seriously. I see way too many women whose partners deny the trauma and then want the right to decide where and how the woman will birth in future. As heket says, women's bodies are always up for public discussion and our nearest and dearest often think they too have that publically sanctioned right to be the determining force behind women's birthing "choices". Any man who experiences PTSD as a result of seeing their partner raped would seem to me to be in touch with reality and can use the same tools to heal himself that women choose such as EFT, talking therapies and flower essences. All in all however until we can stop this appalling human rights abuse being perpetrated on women, I'd say we can let men take care of their end of it. There aren't many men doing hard yards in public life to prevent this stuff after all. I can think of two in Australia!

I think it is quite possible, and probably more common than the vast majority of people realise, that men could develop PTSD after seeing their partner birth, especially if there were complications and/or a certain rate of intervention.

However I am interested to know if the man can develop the symptomology (sp?) of PTSD post birth, whilst the woman doesn't. And if so, would this be from unrealistic or misinformed expectations on the behalf of the man, or a gap between the birth and onset of PTSD for the woman?

I'll have to get researching...

I'm doing some google trawling, here's a link on men/birth/PTSD:

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18248694

Basically, this study found no men in the study reported a singnificant level of symptoms across the three dimensions of PTSD (hyperarousal, avoidance and intrusions), however 12% did report significant levels in one area, mainly hyperarousal.

I'll keep looking.

It's certainly an interesting subject. For me I just feel like it detracts from the womyn who are AS I TYPE labouring under a misaprehension in hospital. I've seen the partner of a friend cry when discussing his partners birthrape - so I truly believe men can be traumatised and HORRIFIED by witnessing their loved ones in so much pain, with so much fear, probably off her face too - quite alarming for anyone!

I just think that it brings to mind the conversations I've heard against feminism SO MANY TIMES where someone says "but look at all the womyn who get raped" and someone else says "men get raped too!". Well, yes, they do. But (just for starters it's MEN who rape men 99% of the time) most of the raping that occurs world wide is of womyn (and children - another powerless group without a voice).

I seriously hope that the men who DO experience such a painful and traumatic birth-day for their babeis will rise up against the system and refuse to allow it to happen to the womyn in their family, their mates wives, etc etc.

And if so, would this be from unrealistic or misinformed expectations on the behalf of the man, or a gap between the birth and onset of PTSD for the woman?

I have to pick this apart . Far too many womyn are massively traumatised, and altered forever by birthrape, and the vast majority of them will be told that they had unrealistic expectations of birth (oddly enough homebirthers never view birth as violent, only those who endure medicalised birth). Expecting to have a nice birth is not unrealistic.

So no, I don't think men have unrealistic expectations! It's not unrealistic to think your partner will be respected and treated with dignity while she undergoes the rite of passage that will bring her to motherhood. Birth is also a rite of passage for men/fathers these days. They expect it to be a beautiful experience where they support their partner, an intimate experience between a father and mother which results in them meeting the baby that they've dreamt about for 9 months. Then they arrive in hospital and are almost instantly manipulated into coercing their wife into unpleasant, violating procedures against her will, procedures he has most likely read about as being harmful, procedures his wife has specifically stated in her birth plan she does not want during her birth. So, I don't think men have unrealistic expectations of birth, and I don't think womyn do either. Birth is a really exciting and special part of the lives of couples, hospitals have taken that away from them. It's very very sad.

However I am interested to know if the man can develop the symptomology (sp?) of PTSD post birth, whilst the woman doesn't. And if so, would this be from unrealistic or misinformed expectations on the behalf of the man, or a gap between the birth and onset of PTSD for the woman?

Who develops PTSD from any given situation is going to depend on that person and their experience. Whether the woman doesn't and the man does, or vice versa, has no bearing on anything. One party having it has no effect on whether the other will develop it. Plenty of our partners are so inured to violence and violence against women that they won't be affected by seeing their partner raped in front of them. There is normally about 4-6 months before PTSD really hits women IME. Perhaps there's a gap with men too but let's worry about women first, hey? Men might view the violence but they're not being raped.

I'm not denying that women are horrifically affected by birth trauma. If I did, this website wouldn't exist

But I don't think it is unreasonable to explore the issue of men and birth trauma. If the effects of women and birth trauma are swept under the carpet, than it is probably even more so for men. This website promotes healing and discussion for all, whether they be men, women, support person, care provider or the family dog

Whilst giving the appropriate attention and space to women, which we have done very well, I do not see it as appropriate that we discriminate between the healing needs of individual men and women, or indeed those as a group. Lets encourage healing for both, otherwise we risk a similar type of discrimination- that based on gender- that helped lead many of us having birth trauma in the first place.

I'm not saying we shouldn't acknowledge men's trauma, I'm saying that the priority is preventing it from happening to other womyn, not helping men

"We" (as a society) don't support womyn who have had birth trauma at all! We tell them they have healthy babies, we tell them they had unrealistic expectations of birth, we tell them to have c/secs next time, or repeat surgery and make out like we're supporting them that way - when in reality doing that is merely supporting the system that left they traumatised.

Adam was deeply traumatised by the two births he's attended, and they were the TAME ones. My first birth was one violation after the other for 36hours, and surgery which I could feel, and unmedicated pain afterwards. But he doesn't for one second think his experience of it compares to mine - not even the loss of our son - which I assure him he feels the at the same depth .

I think it's not unreasonable to support men (and their dogs - since they seem important to you Sammi ) with birthing trauma. I think it's reasonable to support ANYONE (and their garden gnome) with ANY trauma. I just think that worrying about men out in the wider world is secondary to preventing further birth trauma, and supporting grieving mothers. We should be shouting from the top of the bloody world that what happens to womyn and babies is a human rights abuse, as stated by WHO, not making sub topics.

If a man arrived here (and my partner has experienced bt, as has Dan) then I would reach out to him with open arms and offer my sympathy and comfort - that goes without saying. I think that it's important to view birth trauma as something that happens to whole families, and men, being part of families, suffer the consequences of that.

Sadly I see many womyn crying because their partners feel totally unmoved by their birthrape. Perhaps it is the job of the men who ARE caring, and genuine lovers, to be working towards teaching the men who don't get it that they need to listen to what their partners are telling them. I know womyn who have divorced over their birth trauma. (another example of the whole family suffering)

I keep meaning to answer the question and getting tied down in the deconstruction of it - that's not like me is it!

Actually I do think it's possible for a man to be traumatised but not the womyn - immediately after birth. I could give examples of where I imagine it's possible but I think we can all insert our own . I too, could be deeply traumatised if I felt my partners, or baby's life were in danger. After my second birth I went into stockholm syndrome quite badly (was greatful to my captors, you know the deal), but whilst Adam was traumatised, he snapped out of it when I went INTO the trauma. He returned to himself (and stole our baby from NICU among other stand out moments from our sons early life) as I lost myself. You see, I WASN'T myself after Spikee was born, I was drugged to the eyeballs, exhausted and in shock from my second major surgery - something I'd hoped to avoid. He was himself all over - once it was all said and done.

I think that in some cases where men are traumatised and not womyn it reflects badly on the way womyn view themselves and the way society values us, and teaches us to value ourselves. Perhaps they [womyn] feel that they were unable to birth (which according to WHO stats is FAR less likely that our c/sec rate suggests ) or that it's normal to be violated and ignored. They feel it's their duty to be compliant with hospital staff despite a desire to avoid intervention. Maybe they think that staff would only do things that were necessary (I did) however statistics and evidence prove that to be false to the point of absurdity.

I do think men can be traumatised by a birth - it may be their own birth - who knows how our sons lives will be impacted long term by unneccessary interventions? It may be their mothers response to her own traumatic birth left her unable to bond with her son ... I wonder if that is something that caused my partner's mother to give him up!

But at the end of the day, worrying about men isn't the most important part of changing the system. We can't write to a member of parliament and say "My husband was traumatised by the birth of our child, we need to change it so men aren't impacted" because that will simply mean men are prevented from attending births, not that birthing practices are altered to be more humane, and evidence based. However men can write to everyone and their canary (another pet reference ) stating that what they witnessed was inhumane, violent, cruel, and caused unneccessary strain on themselves and their families ... infact I implore them to do so!

am bumping the big threads for the new womyn